Eirik, I agree with you. The rule should be taken away. The current rule for NT is something like upholding the nation's pride and such, blah blah. But no one upholds clubs' pride when they play youths for 2 seasons, get relegated from d1 to d3. In reality, that manager would have been fired two-fold already.

And since clubs don't practise reality, I don't see why NT should stick to reality so much. Furthermore, as a paying manager, I do think NT managers should be entitled to perhaps some freedom, at least it makes using the money feel better, even if it is for our own advantage

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AS Monaco

Simple solution : supress the update gained with the NT-team.

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Mister James
Westerlo 3K

Regardless of what has been said by anyone, the simple fact is what the quote above says.

If Claudio is favouring his own players over others then he is abusing his position and should be fired. It's impossible to judge that after 1 game so the admins should act on it as and when it happens.

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Slovan Liberec

Antony Emans

2A

I'm with Claudio as a NT manager often the lesser (waged) players:

- a good player can come from a lesser waged player, and since updates have a random factor who is to say that the lesser player will not turn out fine too?
- i see it as a bonus towards lower ranked teams and their managers who otherwise never would have the chance to get the benefit of international games.
- higher ranked teams have already the advantage of having the better updates (especially div 1) so with more games for a (lesser) player in a lower div the team can become more balanced

Considering AJ reaction:
You crossed the line AJ, you're an admin. Threatening to fire Claudio was admin unworthy. You have other ways to handle this.
Besides, there are still many international games to come, so there was no need yet to get furious. Set ups and call ups can still be changed.

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Some team

After reading everything , we can conclude that the frustration of div4 manager towards the lack of ways to improve their teams at the same rate others can is growing . And that they are looking for ways to close a gap and that's what can be done by getting friendly NT games.

For the above reason i always send FGM's to NT's who are knocked out of the WC to promote my own players, the outcome isn't always as i want it to be ( sometimes strange to see who does get picked ) , but hey...its the managers right to pick who he wants , but as in real life you should not provoke the fans and play ridiculous players , or do you think fans would accept Spain play an unimportant stage game with only 17year olds and loose it , and in this game the managers are the fans.

So what it comes to is : what can be accepted and what not and how do we measure this ( by what standards ) -> a difficult task.

In all honesty i understand both managers in their way of thinking , the way things are expressed (communicated ) that's something else.

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Club Brugge KV

I said it in the past and I will say it again: As we already have that much rules regarding the NT teams, please add one rule: A manager can't manage the NT of the same country as the country of the club he his managing.

This way you won't have problems like this...

But maybe this solution is too simple and too obvious

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Bert
Tottenham Hotspur

If I hear one more person say I threatened to fire him as an admin, I will actually get annoyed. Read my FGMs to him, not the BS he made up at the top of the thread, that is not the same thing.

The TF was designed to lower the gap between Higher division teams and lower division teams, the fact that Div4 teams have players who are worthy enough to play on the NT suggests this is true.

Bert, brilliant idea, because really, what the topic in here is national teal abuse, which is playing your own players above other players more worthy. That is a fireable offense last I checked.

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Manager of Maccabi Haifa Division 3I


AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

Nuno says: cuz Eirk spreads the word faster than a prostitute spreads her legs

Bert is constructive as usual,i agree with him.In the past i suggested no more than 3 own players in NT team or no more than 3 from one club.It's obvious that wouldn't happend since here are clubs which have mainly local players from same NT team.
I have one idea.What about U-23 National team,playing just after or in same day with the World Cup games,with manager from club from different country? 64 youth teams in their own U-23 World Cup,group of 4 with one game between them and only the top two in 1/32 finals.Yes,that would give an opportunity to non-paying managers like me to get a youth NT and would be fantastic to do something in last two weeks of the season...Light blue tag with letter Y instead dark blue with N...it can be done,i think.Nuno already learned a lot about game developement and I'm ready to be admin for possibly U-23 teams.

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Glasgow Rangers
http://www.footballglory.com/teams/team.php?name=ran
UK/Irish tournament Winner

Please notice that Claudio didn't get fired and was provided the opportunity to explain himself. But it took him ages to answer one of AJs legitimate question. And that delay wasn't caused by being offline: Claudio responded all the time but refused to answer the question. I think that I partially constructed his answer by providing the priority list. On top of that list I probably should have written "middle aged players". My point here is if understandable clarifications on the line up decisions of the first match of potential abuse are not provided, then there is little sense to be lenient.

How come I'm not surprised?.... Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

This doesn't solve the whole problem. People tend to buy players with the same nationality as their NT. And if you fairly manage the NT with the same nationality as your club, your advantage isn't large. I have managed Russia for quite a while. Look at this player: http://www.footballglory.com/players/pl ... p?id=22465
He is already 24 and got only 8 caps so far. This a low number.

Now I will use some quotes of Kris outside the originial context. I hope nobody minds.
Yes, but that means that the player will next season be good enough to play in the NT. Why should he be lined up now already?
All managers are free to buy players who are fit to play NT matches. The playing field is level. And furthermore, I remember times in which managers preferred NT managers not to use their players because of the condition loss.
Would you argue in favour of turning NT management into part of the game which is to ensure that the gap between weak and strong clubs is decreased? I wouldn't.

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Marcel Klok | FK Zenit St. Petersburg | Master Admin | Forum Moderator

To Olimpija and/or Marcel!

I discalled all players from NT now!
Give me the whole list of players you suggest to the NT by this afternoon in order to put them into the formation.
I don't have much time to debate because I also work from time to time
and this day is a bit full. So i need the list to call them up and assign them
quickly not to spend to much time on it.

Ok then there shouldn't be an update advantage through national matches. Managers can only play for honour and fun.

This way there's no need for NT rules, as it doesn't matter what a NT manager does regarding to the update.

As far as the NT goals, I think we should hang on to them, so teams will become available now and then.

The policy of FG is and has always been that paying managers shouldn't get an competitive advantage towards non paying managers. By disabling the NT update advantage there isn't even a chance they would get an advantage.

Also at this point two NT managers can make an agreement in playing each others players as much as possible so they both have an advantage without playing their own players. If they do the same without the update part, there's absolutely no problem in that.

And as I already expect some managers will complain as their players will have a reduced condition after the national matches, so I propose that National games also won't consume any energy of the players that play.

So shortly said: Make sure the National matches don't have any effect on the players during and after the match and make sure those matches don't have any influence on the update.

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Bert
Tottenham Hotspur

I'm sorry, but that isn't what I said Claudio, you can play whatever you wish my friend, it only becomes National team abuse when you play your own players over other managers who might have better. You can play entirely 22-26 on your judgment, you can play youths including your own.

The primary issue is whether you deliberately play your own players over other persons for your own advantage... You have not in any case, so you make your own lineups.

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Manager of Maccabi Haifa Division 3I


AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

Nuno says: cuz Eirk spreads the word faster than a prostitute spreads her legs

Well the rules are there. And each case must be looked at and eveluted but in this spesific case I dont think there is enough ground to fire over abuse. Its only 1 frindly and also explained the reasons and nobody could really tell 100% sure if he used his player before anyone elses. And also this is a small case and if people shall be fired over such small issues or even bigger. I have to wonder. What about the managers that doesnt play frindlies at all? They dont play anyone at all and no players benefit, in Israel at least 11 players benefit even tho they might not the best Israeli players. I think if there is harsh rules in friendlies and consequenses for even very small cases then its not fair that people that dont even play friendlies? The rules in qualifying games are good as they are I belive.

And about what happened to me hehe Im not sure if I changed or not I think Im usally constructive and such but I think perhaps the people of the forum have a other oppinion because Im had a fair share of arguments/forum fights over the last years when I see unfairness and so people get the impression that im always aggresive and looking for a fight. But I dont do it for fun

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http://www.footballglory.com/teams/squad.php?name=POR

I think there has to be a update adventage. Becaus if there is not the fun will decrease thats one thing but then also it will became a very big disadentage to have a national team player! Because the next generastion of players doesnt have 120+ stamina and clubs that owns the national team players will have problems each tuesday league round when the national team players comes back from the World cup games with low stamina. and then people can also perhaps starting to play the next opponions national team players so that they will decrease in stamina before your league match and so so then we can have like abuse the other way around by not playing your national team players to rest them for league

Looks like the big issue is the friedlies so perhaps just get rid of them.

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http://www.footballglory.com/teams/squad.php?name=POR

Bert's solution works quite well. He proposed removing the NT component from the update as well as the condition loss. Doing one of these is bad, but I could live with both. Doing one means that managers with NT players only have an advantage or only a disadvantage in owning these players. A major disadvantage of Bert's idea is that it makes NT friendlies less meaningful, but obviously not entirely.

To A I would say: I don't think that any of us admins has been on the fringe of firing Claudio. What AJ did is to ask for clarification of his line up choices in order to prevent himself from possibly having to fire Claudio some day. I will remove Claudio from Israel in a minute, since he requested me to do so and not because admins decided to fire him based on the rules.

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Marcel Klok | FK Zenit St. Petersburg | Master Admin | Forum Moderator

Oh I didnt got that. But isnt removing the condition a bit unatural. I would feel that it will be a manager/sciene fiction game then.. Then it should at least have the qualification games in pre season and the tournament in end after league is over or something.

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http://www.footballglory.com/teams/squad.php?name=POR

For a long time I didn't manage national teams. During that period, I found the last week of the season, in which only NT managers play matches, very boring and annoying. I guess that there are still managers who feel the same. By becoming a paying manager, you can potentially improve the enjoyment of week. Hence, I wouldn't be in favour of moving all NT matches to the end and start of the season.

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Marcel Klok | FK Zenit St. Petersburg | Master Admin | Forum Moderator

A lot of people are defending "Claudio" but ultimately the National Team is for the Nation's elite players to represent their country. Therefore the best players for the job should play. I agree there has to be a degree of subjectiveness allowed because a manager might prefer one player to another. I know in my National Team I have preferred to play Quesada in goal although I have had higher waged alternatives. But that is because I geniuinely believe he is a better option, not that I prefer to play him because he plays for my team or doing it as a favour for another manager. That is against the rules and the rule is there for a good reason. In real life a manager would be fired for not picking the best team and deservedly so. I can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned something how managers in real life can sometimes be biased, which is true, but it's not to the extent like dropping a player who is considerably better for someone he just likes. In real life it's like playing Gareth Barry ahead of Michael Carrick for England (even though Carrick is clearly better ). It's acceptable because Gareth Barry is still a very good player. It's not like playing someone like Dean Whitehead because you like the player instead of Gareth Barry, Dean Whitehead is not a World-Class player.

At club level this is different. People play youths because they believe it is in the best interest of their team and they will benefit in the long-term. At National Team level the goal is to do as well as possible in that season.

If there is a player in my team who clearly deserves to play and isn't, then I'm understandably annoyed, just like AJ was. National Team managers should be completely uninfluenced by what club player's play for, and National Team players should be judged on ability alone. In friendlies, there shouldn't be any obligations to play youths but it isn't acceptable for National Team managers to use these matches to give their own players more experience just because they're not competitive. Managers might choose to just give their first team more experience or give opportunities to players who have potential to represent the team in the future. I haven't really checked through Israel's available players but just looking at his friendly line-ups, surely players like Idan Latini don't have a chance of becoming first-team players for Israel so they shouldn't be included at all. He's clearly not very good and there is a vast gap between how good he can be for the National Team and how good AJ's player can be.

It's a very nice thing what 'Claudio' is trying to do, by promoting division 4 players, but it is against the rules, and rightly against the rules too. I agree we should just remove the effect that National Team matches have on a players update. It's a shame because they should count but there will always be arguments like this whilst it is counted.

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Paul Jefferson | America | 3L

How about only WC matches count towards the players update and friendlies do not?

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MArk

What about the teams who dont play friendlies ?
Isnt it better to play 3-4 div youth players than non at all ?
If claudio break rules for not doing the best for the nation by not picking all the best players surely theese teams also do..

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http://www.footballglory.com/teams/squad.php?name=POR