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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:32 
Legend
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Olimpija wrote:
I replied too Rob, to that post. I'm sorry if I used your player, but I don't think he played today? Or am I mistaken? I'm not sure if he even has any intention to use your player or not. My player was on the NT till he dropped him yesterday. There's an 18 yr old with 596 on the NT, I don't really see being on the NT as mattering until they are played. As in this case, he has only played his own players.


Yes, I saw your reply but only 5-6 did reply.

No, my player didn't play today.


As an afterthought, and slightly off-topic, surely managers who don't even arrange NT friendlies are abusing their position. I haven't checked this time but I know in the past it has potentially affected my players several times. Perhaps for the KO stages friendlies could be arranged automatically for those teams where the manager loses their job? Then when the replacement comes in the friendlies are in place.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:35 
I'm a lucky pretty little girl!
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I think Cladio is right... The reason so many managers are leaving is because their team sucks, Cladio is trying to improve players so future managers stick to their teams AND HAVE FUN.. But AJ, you already have agood team and a future, you have nothing to worry about, and have let the power get to you in my opinion.

And if Cladio is only playing these players a couple of times, there is no harm, it will make a noticable difference in the bad players, and a small dent in the good players........

This is my opinion, I hope AJ, that you don't get mad at me :P

Thank you :)[/quote]

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:41 
Legend
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Rob, your off topic post, We talked about it awhile back, because I was hoping it might be possible for the youth tourney to be arranged that way. It wasn't feasible then, and not sure if will be possible now.

Quote:
I think Cladio is right... The reason so many managers are leaving is because their team sucks, Cladio is trying to improve players so future managers stick to their teams AND HAVE FUN.. But AJ, you already have agood team and a future, you have nothing to worry about, and have let the power get to you in my opinion.


If the power has "gotten to me", I probably would have deleted you by now. At least don't say silly things. A more relevant point is I could have closed this thread hours ago or deleted it, I have not. So please don't say silly things like the power has gotten to me. Since obviously it has not.

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AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

Nuno says: cuz Eirk spreads the word faster than a prostitute spreads her legs


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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:43 
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TheMKarmy wrote:
If these rules are enforced so heavily it will become that there are an established set of players that are generally accepted to be the best, once it gets to this point it makes absolutely NO difference who the manager is, because they HAVE to play the same players no matter, because if they don't play the generally accepted 'best' players they will be fired, just as you are threatening.
Analytically this is quite correct (apart from the aspects of formation and team talk), but it is not practically relevant. If a player is better in all attibutes can condition, then I cannot see how a manager can justify a decision to put him on the bench. Often, one can argue about which player is better. If it isn't to a large extent clear which player is better, you shouldn't expect us to interfere. Ask Eirik. He tends to get frustrated by that. :lol:

TheMKarmy wrote:
There is definitely a real life connotation to a manager playing his own players. For example, a real life NT manager might pick players he has managed at club level in the past because he is most at ease working with them and he has fullest knowledge of their abilities.
This point is only relevant when the quality difference of two players is unknown. Than you might want to prefer to line up the player you know. But if this uncertainty does not exists, then in my opinion the fact that you know a player cannot justify the decision to line up a weaker player.

TheMKarmy wrote:
you need to leave some flexibility there, its not like the Israel manager is playing utter **** players, and at the end of the day HE WILL eventually pay the price for not playing the better players, whether it be now or in 4 seasons time.
It is rather crucial that the manager's own players are involved. If it is arguable that the own player is worse than an alternative played, I don't mind seeing him being lined up. I do mind when I know that he is worse since in this case I know it's a violation of a rule which a lot of managers can get annoyed about.
And to respond to playing utter ****: You can only know what is utter **** if you compare the used players to the other players with the same nationality. You can't make a judgement of the absolute quality of the player.

A wrote:
Being rude, provoking and and treaten to fire the manager if he doesnt play your players wont solve anything I hope you see this.
I agree that AJ could have phrased his message more politily, but it is my experience that many managers really don't care about rules when there are no consequences attached to unwanted behaviour. Hence I also sometimes repeat what possible consequences are, in an attempt to prevent the unwanted behaviour (and having to generate those consequences).

RobC wrote:
Also, are the mods going to check every team, or just the ones they have an interest in? If they're going to try and enforce this then it is only fair that all teams are treated equally.
No NT or manager is specifically targeted, so I don't see where the unfairness lies. Sometimes you notice an anomality yourself and sometimes another managers complains and that may lead to inquiries. There is not 100% check on every player, NT and match.


- AJ's point is that Claudio Cesare Prandelli refrained from answering the question what the logic was behind the decision to line up a middle aged team that also included 2 young players of one was certainly not among the most promising Israelis. I'm still interested in this issue.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:43 
I'm a lucky pretty little girl!
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Olimpija wrote:
Rob, your off topic post, We talked about it awhile back, because I was hoping it might be possible for the youth tourney to be arranged that way. It wasn't feasible then, and not sure if will be possible now.

Quote:
I think Cladio is right... The reason so many managers are leaving is because their team sucks, Cladio is trying to improve players so future managers stick to their teams AND HAVE FUN.. But AJ, you already have agood team and a future, you have nothing to worry about, and have let the power get to you in my opinion.


If the power has "gotten to me", I probably would have deleted you by now. At least don't say silly things. A more relevant point is I could have closed this thread hours ago or deleted it, I have not. So please don't say silly things like the power has gotten to me. Since obviously it has not.


Is only my opinion ;) And also, I'm just trying to see both points of view.

Sorry for the comment :(

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:46 
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RobC wrote:
Perhaps for the KO stages friendlies could be arranged automatically for those teams where the manager loses their job? Then when the replacement comes in the friendlies are in place.
I guess that we all want this. That is why I arrange friendlies before firing myself from Russia.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 21:48 
Legend
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Quote:
Sorry for the comment Sad

If you say sorry about the comment one more time, I will smack you. You can state your points, if they are logical I'm all for it. I'm a jerk, I admit it at times. I was wrong in the way I phrased my earlier messages, I've said that too. It's a free forum, anyone can talk, even the more asinine of us.

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AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

Nuno says: cuz Eirk spreads the word faster than a prostitute spreads her legs


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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:04 
I'm a lucky pretty little girl!
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Olimpija wrote:
Quote:
Sorry for the comment Sad

If you say sorry about the comment one more time, I will smack you. You can state your points, if they are logical I'm all for it. I'm a jerk, I admit it at times. I was wrong in the way I phrased my earlier messages, I've said that too. It's a free forum, anyone can talk, even the more asinine of us.



Hah, icic.. But did u notice Israels nice defender?

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:07 
Legend
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I noticed all the Israeli players u20, I spent 15 minutes searching them.

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AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

Nuno says: cuz Eirk spreads the word faster than a prostitute spreads her legs


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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:09 
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If you disagree with a rule, start a topic about it. But DON'T, as Claudio seem to have wanted to do or have done, simply ignore the rule and act as if the rules were different. That works counterproductively.
I admit that it difficult to get some rules changed. I don't mind getting an overview of the pros and cons. That is also why I would still like to hear what the rationale behind Claudio's Israel line-up was. Maybe he has good reasons. Claudio has explained some of his line up strategy, but this is a hypothestical strategy so far, since he hasn't acted accordingly. I rather hear the rational of the carried out line up strategy.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:28 
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deleted by d.q
formerly known as claudio cesare prandelli


Last edited by chimpi on 15 Sep 2009, 07:28, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:34 
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So this is your priority list?
1. Own players
2. Low division players
3. Good players

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 22:52 
Legend
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My view.

Its a question of strategy. Should he be allowed to have this strategy or not ? I belive if its not allowed to have strategyes ( some a bit weard perhaps ) its not really much point left of having NT at all then we can just make the computer pick the best players and if your players dont play all you can do is scream to the computer :lol: but off course if you decide that this national team is only gonna play 4 div youths and your team plays in 4 div and are full of nationa team youths then its a abuse... but in this case he only have 2 players and as long as he dont play his players above better 3-4 div players Its not a abuse or ? Its a abuse to the Israel future perhaps but not a reason enough to fire him from the team.

Remember also if we gonna kick people over such small issues payments can go down and Nuno will have to take another job to pay the server bill, and that he dont deserve :wink:

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 23:12 
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A wrote:
Remember also if we gonna kick people over such small issues payments can go down and Nuno will have to take another job to pay the server bill, and that he dont deserve :wink:
Issues small and large, where is the threshold? I mean, if someone gets punished based on a specific rule, another manager should also be punished based on this rule even though his behaviour was less severe. The word "consistency" is key here. I personally find it very difficult to be flexible with the rules since when I'm lenient, I feel like I'm being unfair to all the other managers and possibly also to the previous abusers who didn't receive a lenient treatment.
I agree with you the gist of your story that we should keep people happy. But if you have decide to have rules in a game, then some kind of enforcement should come along with it. Else there is no point in having those rules. One can also decide to get rid of rules. Then there is no such thing as unfair: Everybody would just be expected to exploit others out of self interest and since everybody would be able to do it, it could be fair at well. I don't like switching to such a game. I care about the heritage that we got from Morten.

By the way, A, what happened to you? Why are you so constructive and positive these days? You seem to have changed. I like that.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 23:29 
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Orologio wrote:
A wrote:
Remember also if we gonna kick people over such small issues payments can go down and Nuno will have to take another job to pay the server bill, and that he dont deserve :wink:
Issues small and large, where is the threshold? I mean, if someone gets punished based on a specific rule, another manager should also be punished based on this rule even though his behaviour was less severe. The word "consistency" is key here. I personally find it very difficult to be flexible with the rules since when I'm lenient, I feel like I'm being unfair to all the other managers and possibly also to the previous abusers who didn't receive a lenient treatment.
I agree with you the gist of your story that we should keep people happy. But if you have decide to have rules in a game, then some kind of enforcement should come along with it. Else there is no point in having those rules. One can also decide to get rid of rules. Then there is no such thing as unfair: Everybody would just be expected to exploit others out of self interest and since everybody would be able to do it, it could be fair at well. I don't like switching to such a game. I care about the heritage that we got from Morten.

By the way, A, what happened to you? Why are you so constructive and positive these days? You seem to have changed. I like that.


Both his teams won today Haugesund FK and Newcastle United. So he got some free drugs there :o :D

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2009, 23:31 
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So A, do you want to take away the rule so managers can actually do what they want? That would be better or?

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 00:04 
The Special One
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And when all is almost said. What about the managers who is playing more or less first team players in the national friendlies? Ain't this a much bigger issue? That's a big chocolate cake compared to this small marryland biscuit. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 00:08 
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I have read the posts and the way I see it is that a National team manager should be allowed to play any players he likes in friendlies (no age restrictions). I don't see that as abuse, if they are 25-28 it may help them improve even more and therefore the manager will have a better chance of reaching his NT goal the following season.

With regards to the players played I think a little patience should be called for, then you'd know if there was abuse taken or not. We will never know if Claudio had planned to play all the younger players for one game each (i'm asuming AJ's would have got a game) or not now as this matter has been brought out into the open.

Hell I have an 11k 17 y/o who isn't getting NT games or is even in the sqaud, I emailed the manager but he chooses not to pick him, that managers choice as he chooses to go with older players.

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 00:59 
Legend
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the line between abuse is whether he favours his own players or not. If he doesn't favour his own players and has a wacky strategy, it is acceptable. If he does favour his own players and his wacky strategy seems intended just to cover his own players and nobody else...

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AJ (Olimpija 2B) says: why is everyone all of the sudden asking if he for sale and price?

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PostPosted: 14 Sep 2009, 03:19 
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Some people made their teams great thanks to NT updates when NT's were implemented here.But no one said nothing then.And there were no rules,as far as i remember.Chile NT roster had 13 or 14 Colo Colo players and that way Blagoy survived many years in div.2.No one said nothing about usual FGM's which most managers wrote to NT managers begging their players to be included.I remember well a case in which an admin was involved and many managers questioned the ability of other player,owned by his club and NT manager.He reached last four with the questioned player:).When i was NT manager i always included at least one of my players but they always were top level ones and no one of them doubtful or weaker than someone that didn't received call-up.I had few when i was NT manager of Bulgaria,but i clearly remeber that i didn't used my own Varbanov instead of better Lichev from Haka.
And AJ,hope that you'll be calm.I don't want you to fire Sir Alex from Colombia NT because he included in friendly selection mainly his players:).But he picked all best youths and it could be seen with search.That way Claudio would work too,i have no doubts.And i'm happy that he cares for smaller teams unlike some gritty and always insisting people.Both your players would play at least one game.Be happy with that,look how many scots in my team never had a chance instead of oldies who played friendlies! And one or two seasons Scotland hadn't manager at all.I lost too much update from that,but i never complained.

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